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Good advice, Razor.  I feel the same way about the Glock grip angle, it seems less pronounced on the more compact versions but it's still there.  The M&P really did grab my attention with that grip and the interchangeable inserts.

my next handgun is going to be a m@p compact in 40 with the manual safty. just love the way it feels in my hand.

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I have a compact 9mm and 40 cal both M&P I switched from glock to the M&P and love it. For cc I still grab my j frame and stick in my pocket with a 5 round speed clip in my other pocket. So far that is the best carry format that fits me. My 38 goes where I go.

 

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I completed my CCW course last weekend and am considering a handgun.  

I love the durability and reliabilty of the Glock handguns, right now considering either a Glock 19 (9mm) or Glock 20 (10mm).

I do plan to shoot both and a few others before making any decision.  

I welcome any thoughts and comments.

 

OFG:  If yer gonna get a Glock, get a .40...

 

Now, as a multi-Glock owner, I find it necessary to tell you sumpin' about Glocks that ain't so hot.  There is even a phrase you can Google:

 

"Glock Kaboom" <-- there's all kindsa info about it.  Here is a twenny second movie showing a KABOOM.  Click on the "Watch it on YouTube" line...

 

glock kb

 

glock_kaboom_photo.jpg

 

Glocks all over have gone KABOOM.  They are, for some reason, VERY unhappy with reloads.  EVERY shot you take with reloads is a crap-shoot.  And there is NO WAY anyone but, say, Bill Gates of Microsoft can afford new ammo in quantities large enough to practice.

 

glock21kb1sh.jpg&t=1

 

On the flip side, I love the "flat-top" of Glocks.  Easypeasy sight picture acquisition.  Just ALWAYS use factory ammo.

 

You do NOT want this:

 

7889d1205106870-glock-kaboom-glock03.jpg

 

For concealed carry, my recommendation is a .357 mag. It is a delight, you can afford the ammo, you can just (safely) drop it in your pants pocket.  No need to jack a round up the pipe, no finagling with safeties in an emergency, etc.  Called the Taurus CIA Model 650.  Cost is cheaper BY FAR than Glock (about $450 IIRC)

 

650B.jpg

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Can't resist a good handgun discussion, so here (after a busy-week-protracted-absence-from-the-forum) is where MtnMan gets to chime in.  

 

There is actually a Glock-based solution to both the size and caliber solution - K-Bob feel free to correct me here as it has been a few years, but I carried a Glock 36? in .45 ACP which actually fit in a pocket holster.  Not quite as easy as the Smith 637, but still fit in the pocket and I like the .45.

(By the way, I've never been overly bothered by the .45's recoil, it's actually way less than an airweight with +P rounds in .38)

 

Having said that, I have to also admit that I traded the Glock for a Taurus Millenium Pro (also in .45) because it gave me 4 extra rounds to carry, although it didn't quite fit in my pocket (a Fobus on the right hip was perfect, though).  This was in response to a perceived increase in threat as I started making frequent innercity trips adjacent to drug-infested neighborhoods - wanted a few extra rounds in case I happend to get caught in a street war going in or out.  I have since traded it as well, and am fairly happy with the Keltec P-11 in 9mm.  Not my favorite carry piece (see below), but I have shot it often enough to be comfortable with its handling and aiming characteristics, and 10 rounds of 9mm is a decent load for a lowered threat level.

 

I have carried for many years and have tried many models, and my favorite was probably fastmover's suggestion, the 637 airweight was in my pocket for 3 of those years and I reallly miss it.  The revolver carries very sweetly, shoots like a dream, and with careful shot placement has plenty of punch.  If I should locate another at a decent price, the Keltec will be replaced rather instantly.

 

For those of you about to quote the Phillipine disaster as a negative, remember that we had pretty crappy bullets for the .38 at the turn of the century (and indeed up to the 60's).  A snubby fitted with today's loads is a potent protector, even without going +P, and a revolver avoids many reliability issues right out of the box.  A quick clip, or even a speedloader, adds to the capability.

 

So, though it would appear that I am all over the place in my carry selection, it is more that I HAVE been all over the place, and if I was going to start all over, as the original poster is, I would buy a S&W 637 or possibly a 642(hammerless) and never look back.  Your mileage may vary, but the .38 snubby was specifically designed for this purpose, and done quite well.  

 

Are there better calibers?  Yes.  Are there smaller, more concealable guns?  Yes.  Are there situations where I may need/want more power or capacity?  Yes.  But I stand by my choice for the newcomer to concealed carry.  You have a lot to think about, consider, and learn in regards to situational awareness, prevention tactics, exit strategies, and the whole "should I" mindset - caliber and capacity should not be primary concerns at the outset.  The snubby in .38 is more than enough protection platform while you ponder these other issues. 

 

Having seen Unca's suggestion a second ago, if you want the .357 instead, that's fine.  You can shoot .357 or .38 in it, but beware that recoil with the magnum is best described by the word "punishing" and will slow down follow up shots - I had a somewhat heavier gun in .357 which helped some with the recoil, but it was a real pain for pocket carry due to the additional weight (a german Windicator I believe, about 39 ounces, and recoil was still "stiff" in my opinion).  I probably wouldn't suggest starting out with the full bore loads, but Walt's choice would allow you to go there later.

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In police training by the time they get through telling you all the problems with carrying a fire arm you think you would be better off leaving it at home. The scenario they discuss is what happens if you pull your gun and the guy still wont stop? If you pull it be prepared to use it or dont pull it at all.

 

A cop goes into a laundro mat and theres a woman screaming. A man has a knife at her throat. The cop pulls his revolver and yells "drop your weapon". Instead the guy pushes the woman away and throws his knife at the cop. The cop fires killing the attacker. He just killed an unarmed man.

 

I have a bit different take on the situation - as did the policeman, apparently.  He just killed a perpetrator that

 

a) had a proven, recent, and witnessed propensity and capability for violent confrontation using deadly force

 

b) had just willingly and knowingly attacked an armed police officer with said deadly force

 

c) is not KNOWN/PROVEN to be unarmed at this point (as a matter of fact, if you willingly throw your visible weapon at me during a confrontation where I have already pulled a gun and warned you, I might easily suppose that you have another weapon available to you which I have not seen yet)

 

To be sure, point C is where the officer's defense counsel is going to place all of his marbles.  It comes under the sort of situation a homeowner might face in the middle of the night (I have direct experience, both physical and legal with this one).  Said homeowner points gun at (apparently unarmed) intruder and commands "stop" - intruder lunges at homeowner.  You have about 1.5 seconds to consider this -  a Virginia prosecutor agreed that the homeowner may make any of the three following assumptions and still fire in self defense:

 

1) The intruder IS armed and feels confident or desperate enough to do battle with deadly force

2) The intruder is trained in disarmament techniques and feels confident/desperate enough to attempt same

3) The intruder is not mentally capable of determining the danger posed by your stance, either due to mental defect, drug use, or similar alteration to rational thought and the end result may be that he disarms you and perpetrates violence against you

 

These are the only possibilities the court considered, and realistically, these are the only ones that make sense - going after someone that is already pointing a gun at you makes no more sense than throwing a knife at that person, and I am under NO obligation to assume that you are unarmed in this situation.  Depending on where this happened and other circumstances not evident from your brief description, the cop may not even be prosecuted, or he may spend the rest of his life in jail.  The perpetrator, however, isn't going to put a knife to anyone's neck EVER again, and I don't know that I have a problem with that.  Should'ves and could'ves don't come into play here - it's done and the outcome is more unfavorable to the criminal than anyone else - more sensible to me than hanging the cop out to dry.

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Good points, MtnMan.  :yes:  I just served on jury duty this year on a case involving a police officer shooting at an "unarmed" man.  The truth was, the "unarmed" man had blasted the crap out of the police car, took out the radiator and windshield, put holes in the driver's side of the door, then ran out of ammo, tossed the gun out of his window, then started getting out of the car when the officer shot him, slightly wounding him.  The dude tried to say that he was innocent and the office shot him with no provocation.  

 

The officer calmly stated that he fully believed that the man had additional weapons and was seeking to end the officer's life, as shown by the number of bullet holes in his police car.  I admired the officer's calm attitude.  If someone had shot at me like that, then said they were innocent and unarmed, I would have jumped up and shouted "You are such a liar!" and would have gotten fined or something.  :rofl:

 

It was kind of sad seeing the officer's young wife sitting there, wiping tears away when they were going through the exhibits.  I think she helped sway the jury more than anything else.  :yes:

 

I think our country has gotten 'way too namby-pamby with criminals.  I am all for human rights for everyone, but mine are being violated every single day by our judicial system letting criminals go free to hurt and harrass innocent people.  :glare:  

 

If someone breaks into my home, that action right there tells me they intend harm.  And I am fully prepared, both mentally and physically, to protect myself from that threat.  :yes:  

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Amen sister!  I suppose yer gonna have to learn to do that wid a sword when ya get to England?  Or are "fowling pieces" still legal there?

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I am going to be SO sad without my snubnose over there!  :rofl: 

 

They have gun clubs over there, but I think it's mostly for shotguns.  I'll check into it more when I get over there.

 

When my fiance was here for Thanksgiving, he got to shoot some rifles and shotguns and handguns.  He was instantly hooked.  :woot:

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Somehow I can absolutely see you confronting an intruder with an old, highly engraved, double barrel shotgun - no problem! "I sed git!"

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Rocky, why is reloaded ammo considered bad? 

 

Because you can "hot" load it for maximum damage, say "hot" loading with a hollow point. A lawyer will use that information to paint you as a person who did not have the intent to "protect themselves" but rather had the "intent to kill others". So, say you have a ccw, and you end up having to exercise that right on a person trying to mug you with a knife or gun or other weapon that you fear you life of. So you shoot the guy/gal, and the DA makes a decision that you WERE in fear for your life so no criminal proceedings take place. You are cleared of criminal charges. However, say the family of the dead bad guy decide to bring a civil suit against you for wrongful death. Well, if you used "hot" loads, you're pretty much screwed.

 

That's why.

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Thanks for the info.  The "Glock Kaboom" seems to be attributed to using reloads that are "hot" - loaded with more or more powerful powder than standard.

 

Unca Walt, you reccomend a Glock 40?  Can you tell me why?

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I've switched a few times myself, but for the last ? years I've carried two different guns with the changing seasons.  During the summer when it's shorts and t-shirt weather or here at work I normally carry my S&W 642 Airweight in a pocket holster loaded with Federal Hydra Shok +P ammo.  As much as it kicks, it really isn't any worse than a full weight (all steel) J-frame chambered for .357 mag with full loads.  I had a nice S&W 649 .357, and was dumb enough to trade it off.    wacky078.gif

 

During colder weather when I can hide it better I carry my Colt 1991A1 Compact .45 ACP.  I never felt the need to get a different gun until I tried that damn M&P40, now all I can think of is getting another one!  I even considered--and I'm not proud of this--trading my Kimber SIS to another couple of M&P's!   :scared:  Now even my Colt--named Elvira 'cause she is the Mistress of the Dark--isn't even safe!

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K-Bob feel free to correct me here as it has been a few years, but I carried a Glock 36? in .45 ACP

 

Yup, sounds about right.  For whatever reason, those compact Glock frames always have felt better to me.  The grip angle feels less pronounced.

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Because you can "hot" load it for maximum damage, say "hot" loading with a hollow point. A lawyer will use that information to paint you as a person who did not have the intent to "protect themselves" but rather had the "intent to kill others". So, say you have a ccw, and you end up having to exercise that right on a person trying to mug you with a knife or gun or other weapon that you fear you life of. So you shoot the guy/gal, and the DA makes a decision that you WERE in fear for your life so no criminal proceedings take place. You are cleared of criminal charges. However, say the family of the dead bad guy decide to bring a civil suit against you for wrongful death. Well, if you used "hot" loads, you're pretty much screwed.

 

That's why.

 

8| 

 

Thanks, Rocky.  I guess I can see their point.  But couldn't they say the same thing if I use Federal Premium Hydra-Shok versus average .40 135 grain ammo?

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I am going to be SO sad without my snubnose over there!  :rofl:  

 

They have gun clubs over there, but I think it's mostly for shotguns.  I'll check into it more when I get over there.

 

When my fiance was here for Thanksgiving, he got to shoot some rifles and shotguns and handguns.  He was instantly hooked.  :woot:

 

Yowza.  And the gun has to stay AT the gun club.

 

I think I may have a solution:  I have a 250-year old CANNON...  Hmmm...  They, oddly, are legal.

 

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Thanks for the info.  The "Glock Kaboom" seems to be attributed to using reloads that are "hot" - loaded with more or more powerful powder than standard.

 

Unca Walt, you reccomend a Glock 40?  Can you tell me why?

 

There is a mathematical table for knockdown ability.  It is called the HATCHER RATING. You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 for the most effective stopping power.

 

Here is a table for Hatcher value for a buncha calibers... you can see that if you go Glock, .40 is the best Glock.  Note where a 9mm FMJ winds up... EEEK  EEEEK.

 

Handgun Cartridge Type ..................... Hatcher Rating

 

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......... 49.1

 

.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain ...... 60.7

 

.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....... 92.3

 

*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain ......... 136.8 <-- YIKES!

 

.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ...... 51.6

 

*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain ............. 76.5

 

.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ............. 54

 

*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain .............. 80

 

10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain .......... 50.3

 

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

 

.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ...... 53.4

 

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4

 

.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ...... 26.7

 

*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ............. 39.7

 

**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ..... 32.7

 

**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ............ 48.5

 

.357 SIG full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6

 

.357 SIG jacketed hollow point 147 grain ..... 45.2

 

9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ............ 32.3

 

9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ... 39.9

 

.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain ..... 18.3

 

.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain ...... 11.1

 

.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ...... 3.7

 

.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ... 4.2

 

I have bolded the .44 Hatcher rating.  There is a BIG downside to this hand cannon, and MtnMan has very correctly pointed it out... to wit:

 

When you fire it, you are NOT ready to fire again for a second or two, as opposed to a S&W Model 39, where you can pump out 16 rounds without a pause.

 

The other side of that coin is that when you fire the .44, you do NOT have to hit the target.  Anyone in front of the gun is deafened and shocked, and anyone HIT by the bullet is in pieces.  Didja see Lee Ermy fire a .38, .45, and then a .44 Mag into that block of "human jello"?  The .38 went halfway through.  The .45 went through with a tunnel.  The .44 Mag BLEW THE BLOCK AWAY.  (*snork*)  Of all my handguns, it is my fave.

 

Note that the .40 has a Hatcher rating of over fifty.  ANYTHING over fifty is gonna take down what it hits.  TINS.  That is why if you go Glock, go .40.

 

 

Here is the FUN video of Lee Ermey.  Start at 5:30 into the clip, then scoot forward to (*snicker*) 7:30.  

 

lock n load pistols clip3.avi

 

 

Look at EXACTLY <--  !!!  Eight minutes in... YIKES.  Compare it to a .45 back at 5:30 minutes in...

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From my CCW course....

"You don't 'Shoot to kill', you "Shoot to stop the threat'".

 

Spot on.  But... the threat is only (IMO) stopped when the target stops breathing.

 

Lotta people think it goes:

 

"Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord."

 

The WHOLE quote is:  "Vengeance is Unca Walt's.  It becomes Mine if Walt leaves Me any."

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Thanks for the info, Walt.  I will look into this further.

 

Am I reading this correctly?

 

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

 

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4[/u]

 

Isn't this showing the 10MM with slightly higher knockdown power than the .40?

Also, aren't "wad cutters" used only for target shooting?

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Reading about the "Hatcher Rating", this was done in the early 1900's and was "estimated" rather than determined by actual shooting. 

This appears to be more realistic:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

 

And as noted in the footnote:

"One shot stop %" is the percentage of one shot stops in actual street shootings as culled from police records by Marshall and Sanow"

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Hatcher study has a few little problems, Marshall and Sanow has at least one fatal conceptual flaw, and other studies (gelatin, etc) all can be quoted or misquoted to support or discredit any particular caliber - one such study actually has the .22 lr WINNING the caliber wars hands down, and Marshall Sanow has the lowly .380 coming in at something like 69% in one shot stops, far higher than the much more potent .38 special.

 

Here's the thing - shooting a bullet from a handgun is still rather simiilar to throwing a rock at someone - just a much faster rock capable of doing lots of damage.  It would behoove you to throw the largest rock you can comfortably throw accurately at the fastest possible speed to ensure maximum damage.

 

Big slow bullet vs little fast bullet is always gonna be trumped by BIG FAST BULLET which is why the magnums always win, although it should give the 10mm a better track record than has been evidenced by various LEOs. 

 

At some point, you reach a plane where things level off a bit, and one can decide that "this particular round" is sufficient, especially if carefully placed by a cool, well-practiced shooter.  This is probably the most important of all the "stopping power" points - a bullet that doesn't hit the target has little chance of stopping the threat against which it was launched.  I may be a bit awed by the blast and noise of a full bore .44 going off and missing me from a few yards away (and the shooter may be as well), but not necessarily enough to cease fire, as a matter of fact, I may empty my magazine/cylinder into the center of the .44 shooter out of fear that he may try again ;)

 

So how does one become that "cool, well-practiced" shooter, capable of determined accuracy under a moment of severe stress?  The phrase well-practiced is the key.  You stop fighting the durned caliber wars, pick something in a decent bullet size, weight, and design, and then you shoot it a whole lot.  At least once a week you burn through a couple of boxes of ammo, shooting from various ranges and positions (twice a week is better) and you do this until you are ACTUALLY good at it, not "good enough". 

 

I can't overstress this - you are trying to develop a skill which your life and your loved ones' lives may well depend on at some point - don't accept mediocre results - keep training till you get it right.  It is not enough to shoot a couple of clips/cylinders out of that new gun and figure it'll do okay when it's needed - you have no business even carrying it if that's the case, a Louisville slugger would "do okay" with that mindset.  Sorry to sound so admant about this, but I see and talk to people every day who are now carrying concealed in our current SHALL ISSUE states, and the majority of 'em scare the daylights out of me because they know little about guns in general, and even less about the one they have chosen to protect themselves with.

 

Okay, off the soap box and hope I didn't offend anyone.  Overall point is choose your rock thrower carefully, learn how to use it, and take care of it;  most rock throwers do an admirable job of throwing rocks.

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Couldn't resist one more comment on the above - I had mentioned elsewhere that my 637 smith could produce fist sized groups at 25 yards - but that was after weeks of practice.  The gun could do it (or better) out of the box, took the shooter awhile to learn how to shoot the snubby.  And if I switched back to one now, it would probably take quite a bit of practice to get back to that level.

 

"Born shooter" may apply to rifle guys (my brother is one I think), but no such thing in the handgun world.  Enjoy your practicing!

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MtnMan is absolutely spot on.  I qualified Distinguished Expert with the .45 (that's Expert with either hand).  Yeah.  And in a fargin bunker, it took six shots for me to hit a sapper at ten feet.

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Thanks for the info, Walt.  I will look into this further.

 

Am I reading this correctly?

 

10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain ..62.1

 

.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ....... 59.4[/u]

 

Isn't this showing the 10MM with slightly higher knockdown power than the .40?

Also, aren't "wad cutters" used only for target shooting?

 

Yep, the 10mm is a more powerful round and that's why the .40 exists.  The FBI adopted the round after the 1986 Miami shootout, but soon found that the fully loaded 10mm was a bit hot for most shooters.  The .40 S&W was created to replicate the 10mm "reduced" loads but still be able to fit into a 9mm-sized handgun frame.  You can still get a 10mm Glock, but I think the ammo is still pretty expensive compared to a .40.  The grip frame of a 10mm Glock will also have a slightly greater diameter than that of a Glock in .40 or 9mm. 

 

So there's pro's and con's for whichever you decide on, like someone else said get your hands on several and if you can try a few out.  You specifically mentioned a Glock 19 and a Glock 20, those are really different guns.  The 19 (or 23 in .40cal) are mid-size and easier to conceal than the 20.  Get your hands on as many different guns as you can before you lay your money down. 

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