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oldfatguy

Handgun thoughts

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MtnMan is absolutely spot on.  I qualified Distinguished Expert with the .45 (that's Expert with either hand).  Yeah.  And in a fargin bunker, it took six shots for me to hit a sapper at ten feet.

Ok, what is a "sapper"?

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This is very helpful discussion.  I wanted to do some background research to get started and then, yes, shoot a number of different handguns to find what is comfortable.  I plan to shoot it quite frequently, so all of this is great info.  Thank you and keep it coming.

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Sapper can have a few different meanings, but generally refers to an infiltrator intent on doing sabotage to you, your equipment, or your location.  We used to equip combat engineers with light gear, pistols, and satchel charges to go behind the lines and drop the little "briefcase bombs" down enemy bunkers, into tank hatches, etc (a lot easier to describe than do).

 

Sometimes we called any enemy infiltrator a sapper, in spite of whether he was trained specifically in this manner or not - we assumed if he was in our AO by himself then he must have snuck in with a specific purpose, so he was a sapper - our efforts were to zap the sapper, so maybe we should have been called zappers? Or even sapperzappers?

 

Note that Unca Walt was trained and fought in an somewhat earlier era than I, so his definition may be a bit different.

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Spot on.  But... the threat is only (IMO) stopped when the target stops breathing.

 

Lotta people think it goes:

 

"Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord."

 

The WHOLE quote is:  "Vengeance is Unca Walt's.  It becomes Mine if Walt leaves Me any."

 

I'm VERY fond of the ideology of:

 

"Dead men tell no tales"

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I qualified Distinguished Expert with the .45 (that's Expert with either hand)...

 

I don't want to sway the subject here and hijack OFG's thread subject, but I AM interested in HOW you qualified "expert" with the handgun in your service Unca.

 

I'm just curious what your training evolution involved (and not questioning your abilities). You mention qualifying with either hand which we (Navy) weren't given the option of. I qualified as "expert" with the handgun. We qualified with the beretta 9mm. We shot with one hand at 15 and 25 yards. We also shot at 5 yards, however, the 5 yard evolution was with 2 hands with the gun down at your midsection (by your bellybutton).

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There is a mathematical table for knockdown ability.  It is called the HATCHER RATING. You want a handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of 

Look at EXACTLY <--  !!!  Eight minutes in... YIKES.  Compare it to a .45 back at 5:30 minutes in...

 

LOL! OMG that was freaking awesome! I've NEVER heard Gunny EVER say "I don't want to shoot this gun..." until now!

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That would make you a sapper zipper zapper.

 

An' if ya got a coupla of 'em, you'd be a super sapper zipper sapper stopper.

 

My pussanal definition of a sapper is the guy in the Black Hats uniform who has joined you in your bunker in the middle of the fargin night who makes you shake like a leaf... without even askin' yer leaf to do it.

 

Here is a cut-and-paste of the SE Asia Games definition from Answers.com: "PAVN (People's Army of Vietnam) and Viet Cong sappers, as they were called by US forces, are better described as commando  units."

 

Rockhounder:  I am so old, you qualified expert if you could reload your weapon in less than two minutes.  My first issue pistol had a rock on the side to make sparks.  :hugegrin: happy061.gif

 

Question:  How old ARE you, Unca?

Unca:  Lessee... I am older than my grandmother.  I remember when they invented air.  I did NOT pull KP at the Last Supper... becuz I was the MESS COOK.

 

Makes fer trubble sometimes... Remember when you'd put a condom over the end of yer rifle?  Well, we carried that a tad further.  You could put a condom over yer cigarette (with a hole in the end, of course) so's you could smoke in the rain.

 

So the other day, I walked into the drug store and asked for some condoms.  Guy asked me what size.  I tole him:  "Big enough to fit a Camel."  :angel:

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So...I won't go to jail if I zap a sapper in his zipper?  :unsure:

I don't know if I'd want to get caught zappin' some poor sap's zipper  :woot:

 

Probably a bit better than zippin' some poor sap's zapper, though. :o

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I don't know if I'd want to get caught zappin' some poor sap's zipper  :woot:

 

Probably a bit better than zippin' some poor sap's zapper, though. :o

 

:rofl:

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I found this over the weekend:

http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

Here are some exerpts from the FBI report following the Miami shooting:

 

U.S. Department of Justice

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK

 

FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT

FBI ACADEMY

QUANTICO, VIRGINIA

 

July 14, 1989

 

----

 

The often referred to "knock-down power" implies the ability of a bullet to move its target. This is nothing more than momentum of the bullet. It is the transfer of momentum that will cause a target to move in response to the blow received. "Isaac Newton proved this to be the case mathematically in the 17th Century, and Benjamin Robins verified it experimentally through the invention and use of the ballistic pendulum to determine muzzle velocity by measurement of the pendulum motion."29

 

Goddard amply proves the fallacy of "knock-down power" by calculating the heights (and resultant velocities) from which a one pound weight and a ten pound weight must be dropped to equal the momentum of 9mm and .45ACP projectiles at muzzle velocities, respectively. The results are revealing. In order to equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped from a height of 5.96 feet, achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45ACP bullet, the one pound weight needs a velocity of 27.1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 11.4 feet. A ten pound weight equals the impact of a 9mm bullet when dropped from a height of 0.72 inches (velocity attained is 1.96 fps), and equals the impact of a .45 when dropped from 1.37 inches (achieving a velocity of 2.71 fps).30

 

A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years.31 The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.32 Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously.

 

And the conclusion:

 

Conclusions

Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

 

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

 

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." 42,43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.44

 

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Reading further into this report, the "shot that failed", was a 9mm, 117 grain "Silvertip" hollow point.

 

This round went through the bad (Michael Platt) guy's left arm (missing the bone, but severing the biracial artery and vein along with the basilic vein) producing a fatal wound (he would have bleed out from this alone), then entered his chest, going between two ribs, then going through the left lung, stopping about 1/2 inch from his heart (causing another fatal wound). 

 

According to the report, if a higher mass round had been used, (147 grain) this would traveled at least the additional 1/2 inch needed to impact the heart, causing the Platt to bleed out within 30 seconds, rather than continue the fire fight for the next 4 minutes.

 

I have not yet confirmed this, but I believe the Platt was wearing a leather jacket at the time, meaning that the "failed round" penetrated the leather jacket sleeve going in, his left arm, leather jacket sleeve again going out, the leather body of his jacket (and shirt) before entering his chest.

 

The other bad guy (after Platt fired 13 rounds from his .223 assult rifle in front of his face in the enclosed car), William Matix as hit in the head with a .38 special +P round, knocking him down for 1+ minutes, (producing a fatal wound) after which he got up, figured out where Platt was, then moved to the car Platt was attempting to use to leave the scene.

 

Overall, the FBI agents fired at least 70 rounds (possibly 77 or 78) hitting the two bad guys 18 times.  The two bad guys were hit with not only the 9MM and .38 rounds, but also .45 ACP, and 12 gauge 00 shot.

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Yeah, Holly, from what I have read, it was quite the shootout.

 

My interest comes because at the time, the FBI was using 9mm handguns. Following this, they pushed for and changed to 10mm handguns, using the justification that the 9mm was not powerful enough for their needs.  

 

Reading through the actual report, it sounds like there was a lot of political stuff going on and this was used as an excuse to move away from the 9mm standard.  This has been used in a lot of the forums and information pieces I have also read as the basis for the 9mm not being powerful enough for defense purposes.  My take on this is that a lot was taken from this incident and report that really was not there and used to "bash" the 9mm handgun/ammo.

 

The whole "knockdown power" and "shock" conversation is pretty much meaningless as specifically stated in this report, even though this incident is being used as justification for the larger rounds.

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OFG, if the intent is to shoot and kill instantly, then I would agree that the FBI should look into the larger rounds.

 

However, if the intent is just to disarm someone, (i.e. taking down a terrorist but needing them alive for questioning) then the 9mm should be enough.

 

 

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For what i understand 9mm and .40 are the two most popular rounds used by US law enforcement. 9mm have one advantage over .40 and that is in cost.

 

The report above is irrelevant as it does not mention over what distances the target was engaged. The fact is a 50cal round will not do its job if used way beyond the range it was designed for.

 

The above report is a complete waste of paper. If the correct weapon was used over the distance to engage the target then the target would have dropped. The 9mm round is still the worlds proffered military and law enforcement round although there are some problems with it.

 

If the above report was correct then the military would have stayed with the 7.62 round and not changed to 5.56. It seems even the FBI Fire Arms Unit are trying to mislead the FBI to get their own reasons which I am not going to speculate on.

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Holly if you engage a target with a fire arm it is to kill. Shooting to wound is for Hollywood only.

 

As for terrorists are the target they are most likely to be bombers of some sort. To stop a bomber detonating a bomb you need to disrupt all brain function instantly, anything else and there is a huge risk that the bomb can still be detonated.  If you carry a weapon you must be prepared to use it to its ultimate conclusion and nothing less.

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I doubt there is any "shoot to disarm" in a firefight.

 

From what I am reading, it seems that both of the bad guys were hit in this incident, but strange circumstances allowed them to continue the firefight.  One guy shot in the head and got back up (even though he only fired one round from his shotgun) and the other guy shot in the arm and into the chest.  It seems that someone or something had to be blamed for this, when in reality, it seems more the circumstances rather than the FBI agents or their weapons were at fault.

 

This also took place in 1986, 24 years ago. There have been lots of advancements in ammo, weapons, etc, yet, many places are still using this incident as a basis to say the 9mm is not a powerful enough weapon.  Even in the report, it says that if Platt has been hit with a 147 grain round, rather than a 117 grain round, the firefight would have been over in 30 seconds.

 

According to the CCW course I took, FBI statistics for the "average gunfight":

3 feet, 3 rounds total in 3 seconds.

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For what i understand 9mm and .40 are the two most popular rounds used by US law enforcement. 9mm have one advantage over .40 and that is in cost.

 

The report above is irrelevant as it does not mention over what distances the target was engaged. The fact is a 50cal round will not do its job if used way beyond the range it was designed for.

 

The above report is a complete waste of paper. If the correct weapon was used over the distance to engage the target then the target would have dropped. The 9mm round is still the worlds proffered military and law enforcement round although there are some problems with it.

 

If the above report was correct then the military would have stayed with the 7.62 round and not changed to 5.56. It seems even the FBI Fire Arms Unit are trying to mislead the FBI to get their own reasons which I am not going to speculate on.

Adi,

 

If you follow the links and read through the report, it lists distances, for example, the head shot to Matix was from 30 yards. I have not posted the entire report.

 

From what I am reading, this report has been used over the years to "bash" the 9mm round, but when you read the actual report, a lot of things have been taken out of context.

 

Adi, did  you read the report or just the exerpts I posted?

 

OFG

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Hi OFG my comments were from what you posted but i have read through the link now and i have to say it is a very well written report and states the facts perfectly. But there is a but.

 

9mm rounds have been knocked for years. The important thing to remember is any pistol round is not designed and does not have the power to shot over real distance. From my training a pistol was never meant to be used to engage a target over 15 meters and even at 15 meters it was unlikely you were going to get a clean kill. The problem is if LEO are only armed with pistols then at times they are going to be out gunned and may have to use the weapon further out than 15 meters.

 

If you are in a fire fight you need to close with the target, this is especially true with a pistol but it takes a very high standard of training to be able to achieve this. Along with a very healthy dose of fear management.

 

A 30 yard head shot is ether very lucky or very good weapon skills but at 30 yards head shot it is very unlikely to be a killing shot.   

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Hi OFG my comments were from what you posted but i have read through the link now and i have to say it is a very well written report and states the facts perfectly. But there is a but.

 

9mm rounds have been knocked for years. The important thing to remember is any pistol round is not designed and does not have the power to shot over real distance. From my training a pistol was never meant to be used to engage a target over 15 meters and even at 15 meters it was unlikely you were going to get a clean kill. The problem is if LEO are only armed with pistols then at times they are going to be out gunned and may have to use the weapon further out than 15 meters.

 

If you are in a fire fight you need to close with the target, this is especially true with a pistol but it takes a very high standard of training to be able to achieve this. Along with a very healthy dose of fear management.

 

A 30 yard head shot is ether very lucky or very good weapon skills but at 30 yards head shot it is very unlikely to be a killing shot.   

Adi,

 

Thanks for taking the time to read through this report and post your comments.  Sounds like you and I are finding a lot of the same information in this.  That is helpful for me and what I am trying to learn.

 

I agree too, that pistols are not long range weapons and should not be considered anything put a short range weapon.  A lot of the information I have found out there seems way off base when you take that into consideration.

 

Thanks - OFG

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There is a lot of crap about pistols shooting and sadly most of it comes out of the States.

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