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Swede

The Danger of the Breakdown of Social Order

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We as survivors need only to look at the social unrest thats happening in St Louis Mo. to see a connection of the chaos that could occur in the event of a natural disaster or other political upheaval. The breakdown of law and order could follow quickly and spiral out of control. There could be a time in the future when global populations become too much for the natural production of food and resources to sustain human populations and people could end up fighting over the scraps. That of course would be far into the future or has it started? When you look at the events developing in the world today entire societies are fighting over pieces of land. What ever the reason it is something to keep in mind. I have no idea what, if anything, we could do right now. Any ideas?

 

 

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That is a good question Swede. I don't know that there is anything we can do. I know there has always been unrest throughout the world, but I am not so sure I have seen it this bad. It seems on every corner of this planet there is major unrest and blood being shed. There is a lot of animosity toward the USA by lot of other countries too.

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Preparation can help, nothing lasts forever, and once the initial waves of upheaval pass over, people will eventually start become communities again.  Small communities, small towns, homesteads and the like are the best places to be during these situations.  As far from dense population centers as you can get.    Think of the great depression, it was an economic collapse, but back then people were much more self sufficient, if the depression happens again, it will be far deadlier, because such a huge percentage of the population is dependent on the JIT Delivery system, once that fails, people start starving and then they become irrational.

 

 

Of course, being able to defend yourself both individual and in our small community groups will be critical.  Gated communities will become the norm for a while.  (One of the most accurate depictions I've ever seen of the pending collapse is done in Glen Tate's Book series "299 Days".  His depictions of what to expect are so accurate they border on precognition.  He wrote the series years before the current events started unfolding and there are dozens of examples in the book that could have been pulled right from today's headlines that he wrote 4 and 5 years ago (or longer).

 

 

The "Lone Wolf" survivor makes for good reading and adventure stories, but in real life, they are the least fit to survive or thrive.  No man is an island, and that shows true in times of strife.  The areas where groups of people have banded together have consistently been more deft at surviving economic issues and defending themselves against gangs and criminals.  Groups are often stronger than the sum of their parts.

 

 

Yes, there is going to be a lot of chaos when things finally collapse.  Being able to ride out the worst of it is very important.  After that, it's defense and rebuilding.    Be able to grow your own food and defend it, that is how you survive and thrive.

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Good information Doc. I loved the movie "The Postman" with Kevin Costner. It showed what you were suggesting how settlements started back up and were fighting for control over a group who wanted to take power.  That seems logical and possible. Electricity and fuel will be a major problem. By watching the events in Missouri I think it gives our group a snapshot of the chaos that will erupt and what we should expect.

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Yep, it will take time and that is the biggest question in my mind,  How long will each part last?  Will it be weeks or months or even years before things settle down?  In my mind, since most people don't keep a weeks worth of groceries at home, they will start getting hungry after that first week or two is up and will be starving by the end of the 3nd week to the first month, the next month or 2 will be the worst as people start killing each other for food.  Defense will be at its most critical and anyone without the ability to defend themselves is going to be open game for those gangs and individuals who will steal and kill for food or gain.  After the first 3 or 4 months, those with no food will have either starved, died from unsanitary living conditions or been killed by the bad people roving and stealing/killing.  By the end of 6 months, everything will have normalized at some level.  Then the defensive communities will start to rebuild and start working at improving their situations rather than simply surviving.  The criminal elements will be more limited on target availability by then as the sheep victims they normally have will be gone and everyone left will be armed and dangerous to deal with. 

I could have the timeline way off, sometimes these critical mass events happen rapidly, sometimes they take a long time and people kind of wake up and start preparing for them.  In this case, We've seen it coming for quite some time and I believe a higher percentage of people are preparing than initially I would have estimated.  (Mostly because of the sheer size of membership in sites like this or TSP and many others).    On the other end of the scale there are so many blindly stupid people in dense population centers who are not prepared in any way shape or form to compensate so who knows whats going to happen.

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Sad and a bit scary that the first thing to percolate to the top in this situation is stupidity.  "Let's burn down a convenience store and steal from our local businesses because we don't like what the police did."  One of the reasons I no longer live in that area (we lived for a year in Maryland Heights - just south of Ferguson, and for two years in Bellefountaine Neighbors - to the east).  I personally don't think it is the all of actual people, but the mob mentality that takes over.  I would hope that some of the people that were involved in the followup violence would be looking back and feeling ashamed of what they did.  I am not sure how someone could sit back and watch the news about this event on their newly stolen 60" flat screeen.

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I dont get the feeling they will feel any shame for some reason Fat Guy.  :unsure:

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I dont get the feeling they will feel any shame for some reason Fat Guy.  :unsure:

There lies the root of the problem.

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i have read several stories of both japanese and vietnamese soldiers that survived for 20 plus years on there own inside of a war torn country during war.  i would prefer to have the convenience of a "community" to mix skills and comodities with but i also have no problem hiking away from it all and being self reliant. i think it depends on the situation.  sometimes a lone wolf lives and strives to fight again and prosper. if you have to rely on others then you are truly not a survivor. 

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Survival is the simple part of the equation.  Thriving is the goal.    There are always exceptions to every rule.  Working with others does not denote dependence.  It simply provides a stronger base for sharing resources and moving beyond simple survival.  You can't thrive if you don't survive so those who work together have a far greater chance of both surviving and thriving. 

 

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Survival is the simple part of the equation.  Thriving is the goal.    There are always exceptions to every rule.  Working with others does not denote dependence.  It simply provides a stronger base for sharing resources and moving beyond simple survival.  You can't thrive if you don't survive so those who work together have a far greater chance of both surviving and thriving. 

 

the situation will denote weather your chances of survival and thriving are greater with extra people. but in a true live or die situation those same people can easily turn on you.  it might be worth the risk... but id still rather trust my self than others.

 

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Ancient man formed groups. The fugowes didnt. They were loners. Thats why you never see them any more.

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I would rather have a group of people to "survive" with. Im just saying not to discount the mobility and stealth of a lone individual verses a group in a civil unrest situation.

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There are exceptions to every rule.  The individual in some cases may stand a better chance for any given short term emergency situation.  But overall, working together in groups has a far higher success rate.  Every situation needs to be evaluated at the time the situation occurs.  Always work the percentages to your favor, it's another survival skill.   

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True, those people generally are the first to go when things degrade to a more Darwinist situation.    Those are also the people who fail to prepare or think "it can never happen to me".    However as Carlin said, "never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers".     

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I think that groups will almost always fair better.  There could be missions that the group may want to send an individual on to complete, especially if stealth is an important factor.  Other than that, I feel that a group of like minded individuals will always fair better.  There are definitely going to be disputes between the members, but if some form of law and order can be established than things should flow rather smoothly.  I think that personality differences may be the biggest issue in group survival. 

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All we have to do is look at history.  Sure there have been a couple of lone survivors alone in the woods for 20 years, missing out on life (Surviving but not thriving), but for the most part, groups of people come together and work toward the good of the group.  Unfortunately, once they have done that they start getting complacent, giving up their individual rights in favor of false security, until eventually the people they give their rights up to run the place into the ground and history repeats itself again with another collapse, could be 200 years, could be 2000 but it's inevitable.  Humans as a species just refuse to learn from the past. 

 

 

I've heard that one of the best factual accounts of collapse and rebuilding is the one written by Furfal,  "Surviving the economic collapse", Written about his experience with the 2001 economic collapse in Argentina.  I have not read it myself, but those who have say it will change your outlook on survival.  If anyone has this book, I'd be really interested in borrowing it.

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I would rather have a group of people to "survive" with. Im just saying not to discount the mobility and stealth of a lone individual verses a group in a civil unrest situation.

You definitely would want to know the group of people ahead of time if at all possible.

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A little too rich for my blood right now.  Yikes!

 

 

LOL $25 is too rich for "one of the best factual accounts of collapse and rebuilding" you need to survive???

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Yep, Most of the information is available on a forum I moderate which has been covered in depth.  The book is just a concise version. Yes I'd like to read it, but it's not worth that much to me. 

 

 

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Yep, Most of the information is available on a forum I moderate which has been covered in depth.  The book is just a concise version. Yes I'd like to read it, but it's not worth that much to me. 

 

 

lol ...if you have not read the book, how do you know "Most of the information is available on a forum"?

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